WHY DO SO MANY STILL BUY INTO THE NARRATIVE?

00:30

good afternoon greetings welcome to the

00:32

pandemic podcast today we are asking the

00:35

question why do so many still buy into

00:38

the narrative does it sometimes feel

00:41

like you're surrounded by people who've

00:43

been hypnotized in some way well maybe

00:46

you are

00:47

my guest tonight is professor mattias

00:49

desmond

00:50

he's the professor of clinical

00:51

psychology at ghent university in

00:53

belgium and his observations over the

00:55

past 18 months have led him to conclude

00:57

that the overwhelming majority have

00:59

indeed fallen under some kind of spell

01:02

except that it's not actually a spell

01:04

there's no witchcraft here or maybe

01:05

there is

01:06

but the term for this is mass formation

01:09

and right now it's manifesting as a

01:11

psychological response not unlike

01:13

hypnosis to the unrelenting single focus

01:16

campaign of fear to which we've all been

01:17

subjected over the last 12 to 18 months

01:20

so tonight i'm gonna be exploring with

01:22

matthias some of the triggers and what

01:24

sustains this mass response

01:26

and where this could ultimately lead us

01:28

and why a minority somehow manage uh to

01:31

remain unaffected and whether there's

01:32

anything we can collectively do to break

01:34

the spell before it's too late we'll be

01:36

exploring how socialization uh isolation

01:38

a lack of sense making some of the

01:40

background factors around free-floating

01:42

anxiety and other factors how these

01:44

elements lead to mass formation and

01:46

ultimately totalitarian thinking uh as

01:49

we've witnessed during uh the

01:51

coronavirus crisis so it's a huge

01:53

pleasure to welcome on the back of our

01:55

interview with rona formic last night uh

01:57

professor matthias desmond he's been an

01:59

expert witness within uh reiner's

02:02

coronavirus committee and we've got him

02:04

here tonight to explore these important

02:05

issues a huge welcome to the pandemic

02:07

podcast thank you dan

02:09

thanks

02:10

so this is a fascinating subject um

02:13

you've got a background in psychology

02:16

you work as a psychoanalyst um

02:19

what what fascinates me is is is the

02:21

human aspects of this uh coronavirus

02:24

pandemic and and we were discussing

02:26

prior to broadcasting here you know why

02:28

so many people who

02:30

um

02:31

are in the field of psychology have

02:33

taken time to recognize what's going on

02:35

so um i'd like to start by asking you

02:37

the question what led you to personally

02:40

recognize um what you're being told may

02:43

not be right was there a defining moment

02:45

did you know straight away

02:47

what led you to recognize that something

02:48

wasn't quite right

02:50

well i immediately from the beginning of

02:52

the crisis uh uh i had a feeling that

02:54

there was something wrong with the

02:56

mainstream narrative but i couldn't um

02:58

really

02:59

indicate what exactly i i thought there

03:01

was wrong but i started actually i have

03:03

a double degree on the one hand i i i'm

03:06

a professor that's like in clinical

03:07

psychology but uh i also have a

03:10

got a master degree degree in statistics

03:12

and

03:14

in the beginning of the crisis

03:16

i actually started to analyze some

03:17

figures and some graphs and and and some

03:20

statistics on the mortality of the virus

03:22

the infection fatality rate the case

03:24

fatality rate and all this kind of stuff

03:27

and uh

03:28

immediately i i i i know i noticed that

03:32

uh

03:33

most statistics um uh dramatically

03:37

overestimated

03:38

the dangerousness of the virus and i was

03:40

not alone

03:42

there were several other

03:44

statisticians sometimes world famous

03:46

medical statisticians such as ioannidis

03:49

of stanford

03:51

for instance

03:52

who also want

03:54

try to warn the people and the

03:55

governments that

03:58

there was a good possibility that the

04:00

coronavirus was much less dangerous than

04:02

most models claimed but in one way or

04:04

another all these uh dissonant voices

04:07

did not really have much effect um

04:10

but

04:11

for me personally

04:12

uh by the end of may 2020 uh it was

04:16

proven beyond doubt uh that uh the

04:19

initial uh uh uh mathematical models um

04:23

uh um uh

04:25

overestimated uh the the mortality

04:28

of the virus for instance

04:30

we all know that

04:31

uh the mathematical models that had most

04:34

impact on the corona measures were

04:36

probably those issued by uh

04:39

imperial college in london

04:41

and

04:42

these models actually predicted that

04:45

by the end of may 2020

04:48

in a country like sweden about 80 000

04:51

people would die if the country would

04:53

not go into lockdown and the country did

04:55

not go into lockdown and by the end of

04:57

may 2020

04:59

the virus claimed about 6 000 people in

05:02

sweden and no more than that which meant

05:04

that

05:05

the models actually overestimated

05:08

the mortality of the virus by a factor

05:10

50 so which is huge and the strangest

05:13

thing for me was that uh while uh the

05:16

the the the corona

05:19

measures actually

05:21

uh present themselves as measures that

05:23

are really

05:24

scientifically based that are based on

05:26

mathematical modeling and stuff

05:28

the strangest thing is that

05:30

at the moment it was proven beyond doubt

05:32

that the initial models overestimated

05:34

the dangerousness of the virus

05:36

dramatically the the measures and the

05:38

approach was not corrected it just

05:40

continued as it

05:42

uh

05:44

it just continued as in the beginning

05:46

and at that moment for me

05:48

that was like a turning point for me i

05:50

think i i started to

05:52

take a different perspective then uh i i

05:55

started i switched then from the

05:56

perspective of a statistician uh due to

05:59

the perspective of uh of a clinical

06:01

psychologist and i started to wonder

06:04

like like how is it possible that a

06:07

an entire society even even the world

06:10

population

06:12

is is is going along with the narrative

06:14

that shows so many

06:16

absurd characteristics another example

06:18

of an absurd characteristic of the story

06:19

was that from the beginning of the

06:21

crisis

06:22

um institutions such as the united

06:25

nations actually

06:27

weren't

06:29

warned us

06:30

that

06:33

probably more people would die

06:36

as a cause of starvation or hunger in

06:39

developing countries

06:41

because of the lockdowns

06:42

then

06:44

the number of

06:45

victims the coronavirus could claim even

06:48

if no measures were taken at all so

06:50

which meant as much as

06:53

that the remedy was far worse than the

06:55

disease in this case

06:57

and then still and nobody seemed to

06:59

notice and everybody seemed to be

07:00

focused so much on these

07:03

corona victims and on the possible

07:07

damage caused by the corona by the

07:10

coronavirus

07:11

that everybody continued and that people

07:13

continued to be willing to buy into the

07:15

story and to go along with the story

07:17

which is actually extremely strange

07:20

and

07:21

from then on like in in

07:23

from may 2020 on

07:25

i started to try to understand what

07:28

psychological processes were going on in

07:30

society and it took me about three or

07:32

four months i think it was in august

07:34

2020 because i suddenly

07:38

felt that i could really hit the nail

07:39

and that i could say what you're dealing

07:41

with here is a process of large scale

07:44

mass formation that's what's happening

07:46

and

07:47

looking backward

07:48

looking back at that that really

07:50

surprised me that it took me so long

07:51

because i had been lecturing on mass

07:52

formation for four years at ghent

07:54

university so but

07:57

at that moment i had a feeling like

07:59

that's what's going on and they also uh

08:01

uh could really show uh how exactly this

08:05

process had been emerging in our society

08:08

uh and how it it

08:10

it provoked the effects that it had in

08:13

our society brilliant can i actually

08:15

very briefly define what mass formation

08:18

is could you just can you summarize

08:20

yes mars formation is a specific

08:22

phenomenon which

08:25

emerges in a society if a few conditions

08:27

are met so there are there are at least

08:30

four conditions that have to be

08:31

fulfilled before a large scale

08:33

phenomenon of mass formation can emerge

08:35

and the first and most important

08:37

condition

08:38

is that there should be a lack of people

08:40

experiencing a a lack of social bond a

08:43

lack of social connectedness

08:46

second condition is that there have to

08:48

be a lot of people who experience a lack

08:50

of meaning making and these two are

08:52

actually associated to each other people

08:54

are human uh humans are are are

08:57

are social beings and if they experience

09:00

a lack of social connectedness a lack of

09:02

social bond they will probably also

09:04

experience a lack of meaning making and

09:06

then the third condition is that there

09:08

have to be a lot of people who

09:09

experience a lot of free floating

09:12

anxiety this means anxiety that is not

09:14

connected to a mental representation for

09:16

instance if you see a lion and you're

09:18

scared then you know what you're scared

09:20

of you your anxiety in that case is

09:22

connected to a mental representation

09:25

um but if it is not connected to a

09:27

mental representation you end up in an

09:29

extremely aversive negative emotional

09:31

state in which you deal with the kind of

09:34

anxiety that you cannot control

09:36

so

09:37

first condition lack of social bond

09:39

second condition lack of meaning making

09:41

or sense making in life the third

09:42

condition a lot of free floating anxiety

09:45

and psychological discontent and then

09:47

the fourth condition a lack of free

09:48

floating frustration and aggression a

09:51

kind of aggression that

09:53

is

09:54

that you feel inside of yourselves but

09:56

that you cannot

09:58

direct or aim at a certain object or

10:00

cause

10:01

so and then

10:03

under these when these conditions are

10:04

met something really typical can happen

10:07

in a society when under these conditions

10:11

a

10:12

narrative is distributed

10:14

through the mass media

10:16

indicating an object of anxiety and at

10:19

the same time providing a strategy to

10:22

deal with this object of anxiety

10:24

then there might be

10:26

a huge willingness in the population

10:30

to

10:31

go along to participate in the strategy

10:34

and why because all this free-floating

10:37

anxiety

10:38

which is so hard to control

10:40

connects to this object of anxiety and

10:42

in this way that's the first advantage

10:44

all this free-floating anxiety is now

10:46

connected to another to a mental

10:48

representation and then just by

10:50

participating in the strategy you can

10:52

mentally control the object of anxiety

10:55

for instance if a

10:58

narrative has distributed which says

11:00

that there is a very dangerous virus and

11:01

that we should go into lockdown if these

11:04

four conditions are met then there might

11:06

be an extremely

11:08

extraordinary willingness to participate

11:11

in the strategy and the lockdowns

11:14

even when uh

11:17

the the the the narrative in itself is

11:20

absolutely absurd so and what happens is

11:23

actually something very important

11:25

when people

11:26

start to participate all together in the

11:28

strategy to deal with the object of

11:30

anxiety a new kind of social bond and a

11:34

new kind of meaning making emerges which

11:36

means that there is like a new kind of

11:39

solidarity that emerges and this makes

11:42

that people switch from a highly

11:45

aversive negative mental state of social

11:48

isolation

11:49

uh interpersonal isolation to the exact

11:52

opposite to the extremely

11:54

high level of connectedness that exists

11:57

in a crowd or a mass so and then people

12:00

start a heroic battle with the object of

12:02

anxiety

12:03

which leads to kind of mental

12:05

intoxication of connectedness which is

12:08

the real reason why people

12:12

continue to buy into the narrative even

12:15

if it's utterly absurd or blatantly

12:17

wrong

12:19

it's kind of a ritual it's a kind of a

12:21

ritual it has exactly the same function

12:23

as a ritual

12:24

a ritual as a kind of behavior

12:27

that people participate in

12:30

to show that they belong to a group to

12:33

create a group to create a collective to

12:36

create solidarity and

12:38

you can even say about rituals that the

12:40

more absurd they are from a practical

12:43

perspective

12:44

the better they function as a ritual

12:47

of course because then the more absurd

12:50

they are the more purely they become a

12:53

sign

12:54

that shows that they belong to a group

12:58

yeah it becomes unique to that group i i

13:00

mean just to unpack some of those things

13:02

you know talking about free-floating

13:04

anxiety in the western world that we

13:06

face i mean just just take ourselves out

13:08

of the present moment you know we've

13:10

been living very busy stressful lives i

13:12

mean if you look at any statistic about

13:14

job satisfaction it shows that most

13:16

people either dislike or hate their jobs

13:18

you know people are living leading

13:20

busier and busier lifestyles people have

13:22

health challenges you know we live in

13:24

this very fast pace um consumerist world

13:28

and it's it

13:29

life just comes with background tension

13:33

without

13:34

uh people's the burden of

13:35

responsibilities that people have so

13:37

undoubtedly

13:38

these can this condition uh

13:40

it was is existing at a high level so so

13:43

what what i understand is that this this

13:45

this um

13:47

uh this this situation gives people the

13:49

opportunity essentially to um attach

13:52

like a it becomes an object of

13:54

attachment so they can therefore

13:55

transfix their own anxieties onto this

13:58

external object

14:00

um which which therefore then takes away

14:02

the need to actually do the inner work

14:03

to actually tackle their own anxieties

14:06

which perhaps they haven't really got a

14:07

handle on exactly yes exactly

14:10

these four conditions were met in our

14:12

society to a high extent of course i

14:13

don't know if you know the book

14:15

jobs of graber a professor

14:17

of law from university in london

14:20

who

14:21

who studied

14:22

the level of meaning making people

14:24

experienced in their jobs

14:26

in the first

14:28

in the beginning of the 20th century

14:30

and uh of the 21st century and he

14:33

discovered that actually

14:35

50 of the people do not experience any

14:37

meaning at all they feel as if their job

14:39

was completely meaningless and also the

14:41

free-floating anxiety and depression and

14:43

civil uh

14:45

psychological discontent in a country

14:47

like belgium 300 million doses of

14:50

antidepressants were used each year 300

14:53

million doses on a population of 11

14:56

million people you it's unbelievable

14:58

that's it

14:59

so these conditions were definitely met

15:01

and indeed

15:03

as you say

15:05

uh

15:06

when people can indeed connect their

15:08

anxiety to a false representation

15:10

because the real origin or because of

15:13

their anxiety was not as virus they were

15:16

already anxious they

15:17

were already confronted with a lot of

15:19

psychological discontent but then

15:21

there was this virus narrative which

15:24

allowed them to connect it to a

15:25

representation and in a symptomatic way

15:29

for a certain period of time

15:31

this corona narrative allows them

15:34

to deal in a less painful way

15:37

with their anxieties

15:39

it's a symptomatic solution which and

15:41

all symptomatic solutions in the end

15:43

become highly destructive and the real

15:45

solution as you say

15:47

as you said uh would be

15:50

to start to think all together how we

15:52

ended up in this terrible state of

15:54

social isolation of uh lack of meaning

15:57

making of free-floating anxiety and of

16:00

all this frustration and aggression

16:02

that's the real question we should ask

16:04

ourselves from what's in our view on men

16:07

and the world what in our society

16:10

made that we ended up in this uh and

16:12

there's a problematic uh psychological

16:15

conditions um well yeah that's

16:18

absolutely a big question really

16:19

important questions because actually if

16:20

you look at you know the background

16:22

discontent for instance you know in the

16:23

united kingdom we've been through um

16:25

brexit which is hugely divisive you know

16:28

that's just one example of um

16:30

something that's created background

16:31

discontent but if you take that issue

16:33

off the table but look at how the media

16:34

operates full stop you know the media

16:36

has become increasingly

16:38

um

16:39

uh partisan is increasingly uh

16:41

polarizing and as a result this is prior

16:44

to the pandemic you know so it it it

16:46

divides society and you know these these

16:49

these to me when i i will come on to the

16:51

talk with this later is that you know

16:53

how do we move forward is the big piece

16:54

from here because you're absolutely

16:55

right we're not asking those questions

16:57

what's

16:58

it's

16:58

this type of conversation is fascinating

17:00

because it helps us understand

17:02

not just the problem but some of the

17:04

root causes of the problem and that's

17:06

and you know we were discussing offline

17:08

prior to 2020 i spent most of my time in

17:10

entrepreneurship innovation and one of

17:12

the first things we look for is what is

17:13

the problem and then what's the root

17:15

cause because once we identify that then

17:17

we can start to look at solutions and i

17:18

think this this this this for me this

17:20

these are big issues you know

17:23

the preconditions of massive issues but

17:25

unsurprisingly have created the

17:28

foundation

17:29

for this mass formation now

17:31

what what does mass formation lead to

17:33

and how has this manifested over the

17:35

last uh 18 months during the the

17:37

coronavirus pandemic yes um

17:41

so the first one of the most important

17:42

effects of mass formation is that

17:45

it leads to to

17:46

a very narrow

17:49

field of attention so meaning that

17:50

people seem to

17:52

be only able to

17:54

to be aware both cognitively and

17:56

emotionally of a very small part of

17:58

reality

18:02

on which uh the the the mass narrative

18:05

focuses their attention on so that's

18:07

something extremely problematic for

18:08

instance you see this

18:10

and the fact that

18:11

uh people in one way or another uh only

18:14

seem to be sensitive

18:16

uh emotionally uh for

18:18

victims uh uh of the corona virus and

18:21

then all the the other victims

18:23

children who start who who risk to

18:25

starve

18:26

uh who

18:29

are people who lost their jobs people or

18:32

treatments that were delayed and there

18:34

was huge collateral damage but in one

18:36

way or another it never had the same

18:37

effects as the

18:39

as the damage caused by the coronavirus

18:41

so it's extremely problematic the field

18:43

of attention is so limited that it seems

18:45

almost impossible to provide arguments

18:48

that are

18:50

uh

18:51

in conflict with the with the narrative

18:53

because all the arguments that you can

18:55

raise rationally against the narrative

18:57

they do not fall into this small field

19:00

of attention that uh that that that is

19:03

really uh uh

19:05

accounting for for for people in the

19:07

mass so one of the most important

19:09

effects is that people are the attention

19:11

focused just like in hypnosis it's

19:13

focused on a small part of reality and

19:16

people

19:17

are even not aware of the things that

19:19

are usually extremely important for them

19:21

in a normal state like their

19:23

psychological and physical health their

19:25

wealth their well-being and so on in a

19:28

in a condition of hypnosis or mass

19:30

formation you can take all these people

19:32

away you can take all these things away

19:34

of people they won't even notice it it

19:36

will seem as if they don't notice that

19:39

they lose a lot of things that are

19:40

personally important to them in hypnosis

19:43

this is very clear you can by a simple

19:46

hypnotic procedure you can make someone

19:48

so insensitive to pain that you can cut

19:51

straight to his flesh that even you can

19:54

carry out uh perform surgical operations

19:57

in which you cut straight through the

19:59

breastbone

20:00

it's very strange but

20:02

a simple hypnotic procedure

20:05

in which the the hypnotist focuses the

20:08

attention on something positive for

20:09

instance will make

20:11

will often make people completely

20:13

insensitive to physical pain and in the

20:15

same way they are also insensitive to

20:18

psychological pain because their if

20:19

their attention remains focused on the

20:22

solidarity and the the the the the

20:25

shared narrative

20:27

uh they will not notice that they are

20:28

losing uh

20:30

the the wealth and the well-being of

20:33

themselves even their children

20:36

you will people will be able to take it

20:38

away without the population noticing it

20:41

so that's one of the most problematic

20:43

effects which was also described when

20:45

the totalitarian states of the first

20:47

half of the 20th century emerged in the

20:49

soviet union in nazi germany one of the

20:51

most striking observations was that in a

20:54

strange way

20:55

all these people seem to be willing to

20:57

really sacrifice everything that was

20:59

precious to them

21:01

as if they didn't notice it and then

21:03

stalin for instance he liquidated 50

21:06

percent of the members of his own

21:08

communist party

21:10

and the strange thing was that these

21:13

these uh

21:14

communist leaders

21:15

even

21:17

uh

21:18

did not object or did not protest they

21:20

they accepted uh their uh uh the death

21:24

penalty but

21:26

in in

21:28

and as if they they they they admitted

21:31

that they had done something wrong but

21:33

while they actually haven't been doing

21:35

anything wrong and so uh

21:37

uh

21:38

the the the strange way in which people

21:41

are insensitive to personal losses is

21:43

one of the most striking consequences

21:46

of

21:47

of mass formation and also shows that

21:50

actually mass formation does not lead up

21:52

as not that you cannot compare the

21:55

emotional insensitivity that manifests

21:58

during mass formation with a kind of

22:00

ordinary egoism it's something

22:02

completely different people are not

22:04

egoistic at all in the masses on to the

22:06

contrary they are willing to sacrifice

22:08

all their individual uh uh freedom and

22:12

all their

22:14

uh

22:14

individual advantages uh in favor of the

22:18

collective well-being and the of the of

22:21

this new kind of

22:22

extreme solidarity

22:24

well absolutely i mean i've spoken about

22:26

this on the podcast before it's this i

22:28

describe it as radical collectivism or

22:30

fundamental collectivism

22:32

which which i believe is you know we'll

22:33

come on to talk about this it becomes a

22:35

precursor to totalitarianism because

22:38

you're absolutely right it becomes of

22:39

course you know excess uh you know it's

22:42

it's such excess uh bias towards

22:45

collectivism that we forego individual

22:47

rights and there were some fascinating

22:49

papers written during the pandemic um

22:51

one i think in arizona one in new

22:53

zealand talking about how the

22:54

moralization of policy does exactly what

22:56

you've just described that you know

22:58

people could lose out in their education

22:59

they could lose their job they could

23:01

lose their homes you know they could be

23:03

miss out on a major life-changing uh

23:05

health health diagnosis and willingly

23:08

accept that for this collective interest

23:10

of protecting one another or or you know

23:13

doing this

23:14

together for society

23:16

and

23:17

the governments clearly in the uk have

23:20

recognized this you know it's all about

23:22

you know protecting one another save the

23:24

nhs and all these different things which

23:26

which give people not only a sense of

23:28

solidarity but a sense of meaning and a

23:30

sense of higher purpose which actually

23:33

as you described is something that was

23:34

missing and i've i've also identified

23:37

that many of the policymakers now

23:39

um

23:40

of course there's businesses that are

23:42

profiting from this situation right now

23:44

and they obviously don't want the

23:45

situation to change uh because they're

23:47

gaining significantly financially but i

23:49

think a lot of people are gaining

23:50

psychology psychologically because they

23:52

get a sense of purpose i think for a lot

23:54

of the politicians

23:56

they don't they don't want to go back to

23:57

their normal day job you know

23:59

they're happy operating in crisis mode

24:01

because it gives them a sense

24:04

that's one of the hidden secrets of this

24:06

of this crisis that

24:08

nobody wants to go back or most people

24:11

don't want to go back to the old normal

24:14

so

24:15

if we

24:16

try to wake people up

24:19

we should avoid

24:22

giving them the impression that we want

24:24

them to go back to the old normal

24:26

because they don't want to go back to

24:28

the jobs they don't want to go

24:29

back to this terrible state of anxiety

24:32

we should

24:33

try to show them and try to to to to to

24:36

show them that there are other ways to

24:39

change this all normal that's the most

24:40

important thing

24:42

i think

24:44

and indeed politicians well they were

24:45

losing their grasp on society before the

24:48

crisis and now they have they have a

24:49

narrative uh which allows them to

24:53

to give direction to society again to be

24:55

true leaders again

24:57

so all these kinds all these factors

24:59

together uh make that uh that that that

25:02

that uh it's impossible at this moment

25:04

to uh to go back to the old normal um

25:07

yeah i mean i just want to touch on

25:08

another piece before we move on but uh

25:10

you know in in the sense of this

25:12

you know i consider myself you know i

25:14

started this show back in october we've

25:15

probably done over 300 episodes now

25:17

really just to start asking the

25:18

questions that most seemed unwilling to

25:20

ask but

25:21

as a consequence you know i've had to

25:23

suffer an all manner of abuse

25:26

and uh insults um accusations um you

25:30

know i truly believe i have a solid

25:33

heart and uh

25:34

and live with integrity but i've had to

25:36

be i've endured all kinds of i know what

25:38

you're talking about

25:41

but i know i'm far from alone you know

25:45

even people who question things

25:47

privately and i know many of my audience

25:48

will explain will experience this

25:50

frustration i've heard stories uh from

25:52

from as close people in my team who have

25:55

who's separated from their loved ones uh

25:57

they've fallen out with family members

25:58

they've lost friends all because they're

26:01

asking different questions um and and

26:03

even if those questions lead to very

26:05

profound uh different answers to what

26:07

we're seeing in the um the mainstream

26:10

media people are just rationally

26:11

unwilling to to tolerate it could you

26:13

comment on that piece here because

26:17

i think for a lot a lot of people on an

26:18

individual level

26:20

have lost you know fallen out of people

26:22

and it's very hard you know it magnifies

26:24

the issue really yes yes indeed one one

26:27

characteristic of mass formation is that

26:29

it makes people extremely intolerant for

26:32

dissonant voices for other voices and

26:35

actually we can easily understand that

26:36

if we know that these

26:39

other voices these these these different

26:41

voices uh uh uh uh threatened to wake

26:44

people up and to confront them again

26:46

with these

26:48

problematic conditions before the mass

26:50

formation existed so meaning that if

26:52

someone tries to convince someone that

26:55

the the the corona narrative is wrong or

26:57

that the mass narrative is wrong

26:59

then the people feels that he is at risk

27:02

of waking up and in that case that he

27:05

will be confronted again with um the

27:08

initial free-floating anxiety uh and the

27:11

the lack of social bond and stuff and so

27:13

that's one of the reasons why people are

27:15

highly intolerant

27:17

that the masses are highly intolerant

27:19

for dissonant voices second one is of

27:22

course that actually

27:24

it's far more easy for someone who is uh

27:27

in in

27:29

hypnotized or grasped in the process of

27:31

mass formation to instead of believing

27:34

the one who tries to convince him that

27:36

the story is wrong it's far more easy to

27:38

direct all this free-floating

27:40

frustration and aggression that existed

27:42

before the crisis to this uh

27:46

dissonant voice that's exactly what

27:47

happens in in a mass

27:49

people constantly

27:51

masses tend to commit atrocities as if

27:55

they perform

27:59

a holy duty or something that's very

28:01

typical and at the same but what they

28:02

actually feel is that

28:04

by being

28:06

uh by trying to destroy the dissonant

28:08

voices um we actually protect the

28:11

collective and that's true to a certain

28:13

extent they don't realize it but that's

28:15

why they they it fused to them as if

28:17

they it's something like a holy duty to

28:20

to a sacral duty to uh to to to be cruel

28:23

to dissonant voices and at the same time

28:26

they protect the collective but also

28:28

they channel all this uh

28:30

free-floating frustration and aggression

28:33

uh they concentrated on one point and in

28:35

that way they satisfy a certain need uh

28:38

uh uh to to channel frustration and

28:41

aggression so uh but indeed uh gustavo

28:44

lebon already described that somewhere

28:46

in the 19th century that one of the

28:49

major characteristics of the masses of

28:50

the crowds is their intolerance for

28:56

people who do not go along with the

28:58

masses and they

29:00

they

29:01

want everything everyone to to be part

29:04

of the masses

29:06

and at the same time it's very strange

29:07

at the same time they will usually

29:10

not really destroy their last enemy

29:12

because they need enemies so the masses

29:15

can only exist if they have an enemy if

29:19

they have an object of anxiety that's

29:20

something that was very

29:22

well described by

29:24

orwell in 1984

29:27

[Music]

29:30

where he where he talked about the

29:32

eurasian warrior who was a constant

29:33

threat but nobody actually knew whether

29:36

he really existed or not but but uh the

29:40

masses and the totalitarian system

29:42

always have

29:43

uh

29:44

have to invent new enemies new objects

29:46

of anxiety because if there would be no

29:48

object of anxiety the masses would not

29:51

have a reason to exist because one of

29:53

the main reasons is the the controlling

29:56

anxiety so and the leaders of the masses

29:59

feel that

30:01

if there would

30:03

be no object of anxiety anymore the

30:05

masses would wake up and what would they

30:08

do if they wake up the first thing they

30:10

would do is kill their leaders

30:12

that means that something typical

30:14

because then when they wake up they

30:16

start to realize uh the losses they they

30:20

they suffered while being under process

30:22

and they will blame their leaders for

30:24

the law for their losses that's

30:25

typically what happens

30:27

also describes that he says

30:29

everybody who

30:31

puts himself in charge of a mass better

30:33

prepares

30:36

to be killed by them

30:38

well i would like to hold that thought

30:39

and come back to that because i think

30:40

that's something i'd like to come to

30:41

towards the next phase of the

30:42

conversation because undoubtedly people

30:45

will think you know where are we in the

30:46

cycle because at some point i do think

30:48

that that moment will come um where

30:50

people will suddenly realize all the

30:52

sacrifices they've made were made in ver

30:54

you know

30:55

were made

30:57

needlessly in many ways um and and the

31:00

great great loss uh personally and

31:02

collectively to be quite frank because

31:04

what i do what i don't understand about

31:05

the collectivist mindset is that and

31:07

i've said you know my followers who've

31:09

been watching this all the way through

31:10

will hear me say this over and over

31:11

again you can't save the entire forest

31:13

by protecting one tree you know we're

31:15

happy to become collectivist around

31:17

covet cases but simultaneously allow the

31:21

economy education uh the healthcare

31:23

system to basically flatline

31:26

and i said i say what is collectivist

31:28

about that you know allowing society to

31:30

collapse um it doesn't feel like a very

31:32

collective uh methodology to me but that

31:34

again that's rational thought uh it's

31:36

you know it's it's it's they're not

31:38

operating rationally am i right

31:41

yes it's it's completely irrational and

31:43

that's something very strange so that's

31:46

exactly i think that's a consequence of

31:49

of this

31:50

of this narrowing of the field of

31:51

attention yes people see people seem to

31:53

be aware of only one small part of

31:55

reality and and and and the way in which

31:58

and and and as a consequence all the

32:00

decisions uh uh

32:03

are made as if only that part of reality

32:05

counts so and all decisions and all

32:07

measures are really disproportionate

32:08

that's something that was so typical for

32:10

the totalitarian systems as well

32:12

um it's a really imbalanced

32:15

disproportionate

32:16

uh way to deal with reality um uh

32:20

yes but that that difference between a

32:23

totalitarian state and classical

32:25

dictatorships is something really

32:26

important as soon as you understand that

32:28

you understand the power of the masses

32:30

and so like a classical dictatorship in

32:32

a classical dictatorship the population

32:34

obeys the dictator because they are

32:36

scared of him that's all

32:38

but in a totalitarian state

32:41

people are hypnotized by the by the very

32:44

totalitarian leaders and they are in one

32:46

way or another this makes that uh the

32:49

totalitarian state

32:52

behaves in a completely different way

32:53

than a classical dictatorship for

32:55

instance if in a totalitarian state if

32:58

in a dictatorship a classical

32:59

dictatorship

33:00

the opposition is silenced if there is

33:03

no opposition anymore in the public

33:04

space then usually the dictator becomes

33:07

milder he becomes he becomes friend

33:10

friendlier because he understands that

33:11

he has to create a

33:14

positive image in the population in

33:15

order to to uh to uh to uh to remain

33:19

their leader in a classical in a

33:21

totalitarian state some exactly the

33:23

opposite happens as soon as the

33:25

opposition is silenced as soon as there

33:27

is no opposition anymore in the public

33:29

space

33:30

then the totalitarian system becomes

33:32

really crazy and starts to commit its

33:34

most absurd atrocities that was the case

33:37

in 1930 in the soviet union and in 1935

33:40

in nazi germany actually as soon as the

33:42

opposition was silenced uh the the the

33:44

the the the the totalitarian system

33:48

becomes to use the words of hana iron it

33:51

becomes a monster that divorce its own

33:53

children and then it becomes radically

33:56

absurd it starts to to to to to

33:59

uh to uh to destroy

34:03

everyone no matter whether they are

34:05

loyal to the system or not so that's

34:07

something extremely important as a the

34:10

difference between a classical

34:11

dictatorship and a totalitarian system

34:12

is extremely important and it shows us

34:15

one thing one

34:17

central quintessential thing in this

34:19

crisis we have to continue to speak out

34:23

because

34:24

if the opposition is silenced then the

34:26

hypnosis will become

34:29

even deeper than it is now and then the

34:32

masses will start to commit atrocities

34:35

that's so typical it has

34:37

history has

34:39

shown it time and time again it's

34:41

quintessential that people continue to

34:44

speak out they will not be able to

34:47

stop the process of mass formation

34:49

but they will be able they will prevent

34:52

the the hypnosis to become so deep that

34:56

uh

34:57

atrocities are committed and

35:00

uh well so so i think usually

35:03

uh in a process of mass formation there

35:05

are three groups there are always three

35:07

groups there is one group

35:09

only

35:10

about 30 of the people is really

35:13

hypnotized that's something strange and

35:15

also in a totalitarian state

35:17

only 30 percent of the population is

35:19

really totalitarian

35:23

there is a second group of about 40

35:26

percent who usually

35:29

does not go against the the mass or the

35:32

crowd so they

35:35

also

35:37

they

35:38

follow the crowd and in that way

35:40

there is a group of 70

35:42

who is going along with the system or

35:44

with the masses and then there is an

35:46

additional group of about 30 percent who

35:48

is also not hypnotized

35:50

and who tries to speak out or to do

35:52

something

35:53

and that group is extremely

35:56

heterogeneous it's of all political

35:58

backgrounds of all socio-economic

36:00

statuses of all ethnic ethnic

36:03

uh

36:05

groups it's very hard to define what

36:07

that group is this third group but this

36:09

third group is usually also about 25 or

36:12

30

36:13

so if this group could really unify

36:16

as soon as this group is really one

36:19

group as soon as this group finds a way

36:21

to really identify with each other

36:24

the crisis is over and the mass

36:25

formation stops that's uh the challenge

36:29

well i mean there's there's some really

36:30

fascinating distinctions i think the

36:32

first important one is the distinction

36:33

between total talent here in it so

36:35

totalitarianism and dictatorships

36:37

because a lot of people saying you know

36:39

how do we how do we how do we overturn

36:41

this uh you know in a classical

36:42

dictatorship it's very simple you know

36:44

it's it's there's

36:45

usually one clear leader and they've

36:47

probably got um comrades alongside them

36:49

but but clearly there's there's a clear

36:51

focal point but but what we're

36:52

experiencing is something a bit a bit

36:53

different to that under this uh almost

36:55

totalitarian global regime but we'll

36:57

perhaps talk more about that in a minute

36:59

the next piece is around this this

37:01

breakdown almost 30 seemingly

37:03

indoctrinated uh and perhaps won't

37:05

change their mind no matter what you do

37:08

but perhaps there's 40 percent they

37:10

follow along but could be swayed maybe

37:12

more neutral and then the the 30 percent

37:14

who are

37:15

more rebellious or

37:17

or dissenting um which leads to my next

37:20

question really is is is

37:23

why are some people

37:24

apparently not affected by mass

37:26

formation you know if we look at those

37:28

like myself who are questioning um and

37:31

uh actively seeking to create change you

37:33

know that 30 percent rebel group

37:35

effectively

37:37

why why why are we not affected by mass

37:40

formation in the same way

37:42

that's a very very good question

37:46

many people have tried to answer that

37:47

question and

37:49

usually

37:51

everybody

37:53

or most or

37:55

almost always people fail to give a real

37:57

answer

37:58

i think in this crisis

38:02

whether you buy into the story or not

38:05

whether you hypnotize or not has a lot

38:07

to do with your

38:09

broader ideological preferences like i

38:12

feel that

38:13

most people who really go along with the

38:15

narrative now and who are

38:16

really identifying with the narrative

38:19

uh have no problem at all with a very

38:22

mechanistic biological reductionist view

38:25

on man in the world so i think i think

38:27

that most people for instance

38:30

are convinced that uh vaccines are the

38:33

best way to

38:34

uh boost your uh boost your immune

38:37

system and so on so i think that most of

38:39

the people who really go along with the

38:40

narrative now are people who feel good

38:43

with the more with the broader ideology

38:45

the biological reductionist even the

38:47

transhumanist ideology uh that is

38:50

seizing

38:51

uh the population now because i'm i'm

38:54

convinced that

38:57

if we if this process continues we will

39:00

end up in a transhumanist society or

39:03

they will try to reorganize society uh

39:06

according to the ideals and the

39:07

principles of transhumanism um

39:10

[Music]

39:12

and i think that i

39:13

as far as

39:16

i i think that that that people who

39:19

who uh uh who who object and who who who

39:22

protest and who

39:24

uh who uh who are not sensitive to the

39:27

mass formation now that usually

39:29

they are people who who really

39:32

uh

39:33

have enough version for uh for this

39:36

this biological reductionist ideology

39:38

that's my two cent word opinion uh

39:41

um

39:42

do you think linked to your previous

39:44

point around the kind of background

39:45

factors is is it possible that perhaps

39:47

those who are

39:49

um

39:50

more inclined to be

39:52

indoctrinated or fall under the spell of

39:54

this kind of mass formation is it

39:56

possible that they potentially have

39:57

higher levels of background anxiety

40:00

and you know this idea of biological

40:02

reductiveness

40:03

into vaccines you know i i made a

40:05

comment on a um there's an american um

40:07

spiritual leader who who was commenting

40:10

on the situation and i said is it

40:11

possible that people's erosion of faith

40:13

is what's leading to this almost

40:15

dogmatic ideological

40:17

um savior-like response when it comes to

40:20

vaccines they want to place their

40:22

anxieties into this external solution

40:25

you know as a vehicle to to overcome

40:27

their inner anxieties is it possible

40:30

that this group have potentially a

40:31

higher background level of anxiety and

40:34

also to comment if you will on the

40:37

you know the there's a marker of

40:38

intelligence i believe it's you know the

40:40

people you would you would expect you

40:41

know the most educated the most academic

40:44

seem to be the ones that uh

40:46

are most compliant with the ideology and

40:49

uh

40:50

both of these points fascinate me yes of

40:52

course of course yes um that was

40:55

something that that was already

40:56

mentioned by gustav le bon in the 19th

40:58

century in his book the psychology of

41:00

the crowd uh he he writes that actually

41:04

the higher the level of education the

41:06

more sensitive people are to mass

41:07

formation usually of course always

41:09

usually and also

41:12

the level of education and even

41:14

the level of intelligence actually uh

41:19

the level of intelligence for instance

41:21

uh

41:22

highly educated and highly intelligent

41:24

people uh uh uh

41:26

become exactly as intelligent uh uh as

41:30

everybody else in the masses it has

41:32

something very very typical for mass

41:35

formation that everybody becomes equally

41:37

intelligent which usually means

41:40

extremely stupid

41:41

in the masters and people

41:43

as soon as someone is seized by by mass

41:45

formation he usually loses all capacity

41:48

for critical and rational thinking

41:49

that's something some one of the most

41:51

uh characteristic uh

41:54

uh most salient characteristics of an

41:56

individual

41:58

that is in mass formation

42:00

um uh

42:03

so and then yes well uh what about the

42:07

level of anxiety as maybe does the level

42:10

of anxiety play a role

42:12

uh when it comes to being sensitive for

42:14

a mass formation

42:17

i'm not sure about that

42:19

because i feel that many people who

42:25

are not sensitive for mass formation now

42:27

are also very anxious but their anxiety

42:29

is connected to a different object and

42:31

one in one way or another

42:34

it's not attracted by the object of the

42:36

virus for instance in my case from the

42:38

beginning i've never been really anxious

42:40

for the virus never i i don't know why

42:43

but i've never been really anxious for

42:45

the virus maybe at some moments a little

42:47

bit in the beginning i don't know but

42:49

but but from the beginning of the crisis

42:51

i had the feeling that there were social

42:53

dynamics that were emerging and

42:56

that were emerging that could be that

42:58

could potentially be very risk uh risky

43:01

and that potentially could be very

43:02

dangerous and in the first weeks of the

43:04

weeks of the crisis

43:06

i wrote an opinion paper already warning

43:08

that

43:09

this dynamic showed all characteristics

43:11

of the first steps of the emergence of a

43:14

totalitarian state and i was anxious too

43:17

but i was anxious for these

43:20

social consequences and not for the

43:22

virus so

43:24

in my opinion it could be that the

43:26

general level of anxiety is higher

43:29

prior to the crisis uh in the

43:31

people sensitive for mass formation but

43:33

i'd rather think that it has more to do

43:36

with a tendency of an incarnation to

43:38

connect your anxiety to a certain object

43:40

i think that's more important here um

43:43

yes um

43:44

that's that's really interesting um

43:47

uh now uh linked to this part then um

43:52

you know

43:53

there's this concept of emotional

43:54

intelligence which daniel goldman has

43:56

written about you know i think there's

43:57

perhaps a level of emotional

43:59

intelligence as opposed to in you know

44:01

the

44:02

traditional iq that perhaps plays a role

44:04

if have you looked at any aspects around

44:07

that because it feels like the the more

44:09

people are emotionally aware

44:12

are able to have that intuitive

44:13

connection a lot of people i speak to

44:15

who have perhaps questioned the

44:17

narrative have have have even if they

44:20

didn't realize it at the beginning say

44:22

that something in their gut something

44:24

intuitively didn't feel right and i

44:26

think that's

44:27

having that ability to tune into one's

44:29

intuition is perhaps some a marker you

44:31

know i think that's very difficult to

44:33

to study but would you say that plays a

44:35

role

44:40

i doubt it also i don't know okay

44:43

i know a lot of emotionally sensitive

44:45

people who are now so much into the

44:47

story into the devil okay yes and and i

44:51

think it has a for instance it might

44:53

have a lot to do with

44:55

the

44:57

the balance the internal balance between

45:00

uh individualism and collectivism

45:03

like

45:04

uh

45:07

like

45:08

so so

45:09

what's really characteristic of the

45:11

emergence of the of the the 20th century

45:14

masses was that

45:15

it were all people who were socially

45:17

atomized who are socially who felt

45:19

socially isolated disconnected and then

45:22

in

45:23

one

45:25

step switched from extreme isolation to

45:28

extreme the extreme connectedness of the

45:30

masses

45:32

does emotional intelligence has a lot to

45:34

do with it

45:36

perhaps

45:38

perhaps one to explore you know it's

45:40

it's interesting it's just an

45:41

observation i think um

45:43

you know it's very difficult to quantify

45:45

uh you know this

45:47

um but but nonetheless it's an

45:48

interesting so i mean

45:50

what i'd like to progress to talking

45:51

about now you know we will you know you

45:53

talked about when people um

45:55

uh

45:56

come to wake up uh they want to tear

45:59

down the totalitarian state that they're

46:02

in when they come to their senses take

46:03

down the leaders um but obviously prior

46:06

to to achieving that point it takes a

46:08

certain percentage of people you know 30

46:09

percent you said uh will feel a certain

46:11

way i think it's taken us a long time to

46:13

get anywhere close to that from the

46:14

beginning uh perhaps some of them are

46:16

more silent um

46:19

as i was actually for much of the time i

46:20

was

46:21

constantly moaning about it to my wife

46:23

uh but but not not publicly

46:26

um so so is it what can we get what what

46:30

insights can we gather to to actually

46:31

wake

46:32

you know

46:33

in simplistic terms wake people up and

46:35

and as part of that answer would you

46:37

would you mind sharing you know is there

46:38

any insights from your own journey

46:40

because you said at the beginning you

46:41

didn't you did you know you were looking

46:42

at the statistics and even though

46:43

rationally it didn't make sense but it

46:45

got to a point where you had a moment of

46:46

realization is there something from your

46:48

own experience that perhaps uh

46:50

uh is an indicator of what leads people

46:53

to make these kind of distinctions

46:58

yes well i

46:59

you know in my opinion

47:01

really the most important thing is to

47:04

continue to speak out just to say

47:09

that you do not agree with the

47:10

mainstream narrative that's the most

47:12

basic thing because mass formation

47:15

is a kind of hypnosis

47:17

and

47:18

as such

47:19

it is a phenomenon that is provoked by

47:22

the vibration of a voice but really you

47:24

have to take this literally total

47:26

italian leaders know this very well they

47:29

start every new day with 30 minutes of

47:32

propaganda in which the voice of the

47:35

leader

47:36

uh constantly penetrates the

47:38

consciousness

47:40

of

47:41

uh of uh

47:43

of the population so

47:45

without

47:46

mass media and

47:48

without the ability to

47:51

confront people time and time again with

47:52

the voice of the leaders

47:54

no mass formation would uh continue as

47:57

long as it continued uh in germany and

48:00

then the and then in the soviet union so

48:03

and the opposite is also true so

48:06

if other voices

48:09

are available in the public space or

48:11

sound in a public space then hypnosis

48:13

will be disturbed or well become less

48:15

deep so i think in any case so what we

48:19

what we have to convince each other of

48:22

time and time again

48:25

is that we all together have to continue

48:28

to speak out

48:30

and um

48:33

sorry can you come again with the second

48:34

part of your question because sorry yeah

48:36

it's a bad habit of asking two questions

48:38

in one um

48:39

i was asking about your own experience

48:40

you had your own point of inflection you

48:42

know was there anything that you

48:44

observed that led to that point of

48:46

inflection because

48:47

there's lots of people that even within

48:48

my audience and if i ask them to share

48:50

and perhaps

48:51

uh you may want to do this in the

48:52

comments if you're watching live what

48:54

was your turning point because i i've

48:56

asked the question in many different

48:57

forums and groups and people often find

48:59

that there was something that just

49:00

triggered them and said no this doesn't

49:02

make sense anymore because i think if we

49:04

can find these points of inflection

49:06

and create content around those points

49:08

of inflection we create these points of

49:10

relatability that perhaps could wake

49:12

more people up so

49:14

if for the audience watching at home if

49:15

there's a point of inflection for you

49:16

whether you realize things weren't quite

49:18

right please do share it in the comments

49:20

but for yourself matthias

49:22

that that point where you re where you

49:23

really recognized this was mass

49:25

formation you know you'd look at the

49:26

statistics was there something that that

49:28

tipped you over the edge

49:30

no

49:31

uh because as i mentioned as i just

49:33

mentioned like uh in the first week of

49:36

the coronavirus i always i i wrote my

49:38

first opinion paper and the title of the

49:40

paper was

49:42

the fear of the virus is more dangerous

49:44

than the virus itself

49:45

and because from the beginning i had a

49:47

feeling like like look the psychological

49:49

process here is more threatening than

49:51

the biological

49:53

danger or the biological and even more

49:57

uh two months before the onset of the

49:59

crisis so in december

50:01

uh

50:02

the end of 2019 in

50:05

late december 2019

50:07

i went to the bank

50:09

to pay back my mortgage

50:11

because

50:13

and the and the bank director asked me

50:15

but why do you want to pay back your

50:16

mortgage you will lose your your tax

50:18

advantages and stuff why would you pay

50:19

it back and i said because i feel and i

50:22

know that this society is going to a

50:25

tipping point i had at university

50:28

nothing functioned anymore there were so

50:29

many burnouts that

50:32

that that there was always someone

50:33

lacking to do a certain task or to to to

50:35

finish a certain project and i knew i

50:38

felt

50:39

there were

50:40

several indicators that were negative

50:43

indicators that would really that were

50:45

really increasing exponentially and in

50:47

december 2019 i went to the bank and

50:49

they said i want to be as free as

50:52

possible and i want to pay back my

50:53

mortgage and i talked for one and a half

50:56

hour to the bank director who tried to

50:58

convince me like

51:00

that i didn't that that he felt like it

51:02

was not necessary to pay back my

51:03

mortgage but i did pay it back and i

51:06

knew that two or

51:08

two two or three months later

51:10

i told my wife luke

51:12

that's a tipping point that was about to

51:14

happen

51:15

and and uh so i had the feeling that

51:19

of course there were certain insights

51:21

and certain information that

51:25

sometimes i doubted during the crisis

51:27

because

51:28

for one reason or another my uh first

51:31

opinion paper i was in

51:33

with my first opinion paper i was uh i

51:36

was

51:37

suddenly famous in belgium because

51:38

everybody

51:39

everybody read it and everybody was

51:41

talking about it and and and then the

51:43

weeks after the publication of that

51:45

paper

51:46

i i really was i was really scared

51:48

sometimes because i i felt like well

51:50

maybe i was wrong and maybe we are

51:52

really danger

51:54

confronted with the with the killer

51:56

virus here

51:57

and and of course there were certain

51:59

information who really convinced me that

52:01

or who took away my doubts for instance

52:04

as i said by the end of may the fact

52:06

that uh the the the the models of

52:09

imperial college college proved to be

52:11

completely wrong and stuff but i had a

52:14

feeling that i was more or less

52:16

a little bit awake from the beginning of

52:18

the crisis yes well i think this this is

52:20

the next point i'd like to move to

52:22

because what you did there what you

52:23

explained there is you you then went

52:24

back to the statistics to rationalize

52:26

your your instinct yeah and the reason i

52:29

want to make that point is because

52:30

actually um you know we could do a whole

52:33

episode on this and um i've got people

52:34

coming up on the show to talk about this

52:36

but you know you say keep keep talking

52:38

keep keep sharing information now one of

52:41

the things we've recognized over the

52:42

last 18 months is that we try and we try

52:44

and uh influence with logic

52:47

and statistics and data and evidence it

52:49

just seems like it hits up against a

52:51

brick wall so is there any principles of

52:53

influence that you could share you know

52:54

is there a different approach that we

52:56

could take in order to to

52:57

psychologically uh make this process

53:00

easier

53:02

yes i think and we have to continue to

53:05

share rational counter argumentations

53:07

because they make the hypnosis less deep

53:09

i'm convinced of that so we should not

53:10

stop it but

53:12

if we do only that it might be

53:14

frustrating and so because because

53:16

indeed uh while the hypnosis becomes

53:18

less deep you're never really able to

53:19

wake people up with these rational

53:21

argumentations and that's something very

53:23

logical if you consider the process of

53:24

mass formation actually the beginning

53:27

point of mass formation is an effective

53:29

process is something at the emotional

53:30

level meaning

53:32

uh namely this connection there's this

53:36

connect connecting of uh the

53:38

free-floating anxiety to

53:40

the the representation of an object of

53:43

anxiety such as the virus so these two

53:45

things

53:46

this free-floating anxiety and the

53:48

mental representation of the virus they

53:51

melted together and to use a metaphor

53:54

you could say that it were like two

53:56

pieces of metal

53:58

that were heated up

54:00

until they melted a little bit

54:02

and then were pushed together

54:04

and they merged so and that's why they

54:07

are connected they are connected because

54:09

they were

54:10

pushed against each other at a high

54:13

level of heat in the psych in the

54:15

psychological system at a higher level

54:16

of anxiety so what you can do is

54:19

uh you can make people even more scared

54:22

of a new object of anxiety for instance

54:25

the risk of a totalitarian state

54:27

and then the temperature in this in the

54:29

in the psychological system will

54:32

increase again and the

54:35

two pieces of metal will

54:38

separate

54:39

and then if you provide then a new

54:42

object of anxiety

54:44

you might be able to connect the anxiety

54:46

to this new object of anxiety

54:48

and then it makes sense then you can

54:50

start to provide

54:52

uh

54:54

rational argumentations and that's

54:56

exactly what happens sometimes i gave a

54:58

few interviews here in

55:00

belgium and holland on the risk of

55:02

totalitarianism and they they were like

55:04

they got maybe two or

55:06

even three hundred thousand views i

55:07

think it were they were really

55:09

uh many people watched it and they

55:11

received many emails of people telling

55:13

me that it was as if they

55:15

woke up while watching to the to the

55:17

interviews and it sparked my interest

55:20

and i asked them like why do you think

55:22

what did make you wake up when you watch

55:24

the interviews and some people described

55:27

it in detail and they said it was

55:28

because i got really anxious of what you

55:30

were telling about the risk of

55:32

totalitarianism

55:33

and that's what happens if you if people

55:35

start to be even more scared of a new

55:37

object of anxiety and you also offer

55:40

a new strategy to deal with this new

55:42

object of anxiety you might

55:45

you might

55:46

be able to to wake them up and to

55:48

connect all their emotional stuff and

55:50

their anxiety to a new strategy to a new

55:52

a new narrative so that's something that

55:54

sometimes works quite well and i we've

55:56

always so i've

55:58

i've been involved in uh

56:00

in

56:00

um the making of some movies for some

56:03

political

56:04

uh

56:05

um parties that uh want to uh to uh to

56:10

provide an alternative to the corona to

56:12

the mainstream corona measures and the

56:16

these narratives these uh

56:18

propaganda

56:19

films were sometimes quite

56:21

successful and it was because i think

56:23

because i i i i

56:26

first we first presented some some

56:29

frightening images of of totalitarian

56:31

states and then started to provide

56:33

rational argumentations uh why the

56:35

corona measures actually were not uh

56:37

were wrapped in or good form not good at

56:39

all for society stuff like that so the

56:41

the basic principle is the following

56:45

first you have to deal with the

56:46

effective component and then you can

56:48

start to provide rational argumentation

56:50

but of course this is not always

56:52

possible and i think nevertheless that

56:54

it makes sense to continue to provide

56:56

time and time again the same rational

56:59

counter-argumentations because in this

57:01

way you will not be able to make the the

57:03

masses up but you will

57:06

make the hypnosis less deep or prevent

57:08

it to become even deeper yes and in many

57:11

ways it strengthens the bonds amongst

57:13

those who are uh dissident voices as

57:15

well because it gives them a greater

57:17

certainty in their position

57:19

by by having that rational uh backup uh

57:23

i mean there's plenty of examples around

57:24

the one of the issues i find is that

57:26

there's this notion of it will never

57:27

happen to me or it will never happen to

57:29

us and you know i i take a metaphor form

57:32

or a comparison from the world of health

57:34

you know people make decisions about

57:36

what they eat and consume today not

57:38

really thinking about the health

57:39

consequences 10 20 years down the line

57:41

they're not thinking you know if if they

57:43

smoke or they drink or or

57:45

eat poor diets they don't they don't

57:47

think about the long-term consequences

57:49

but similarly you could look at what's

57:51

happening in australia for instance or

57:53

other parts of the world and say well

57:55

that's never going to happen here and

57:56

that's the kind of mentality that i see

57:58

happening even though it's happening in

57:59

a comparable economy you know if it's

58:02

happening in a

58:03

you know when uh there was uh one of the

58:05

countries they they took they took down

58:06

their internet for three days and you

58:08

know you could imagine in a western

58:09

world in the united kingdom in belgium

58:11

people say well the governments would

58:12

never take down the internet but this is

58:14

the mentality because time and time

58:16

again we've seen over the last 12 18

58:18

months people say that won't happen to

58:19

us and then within a month there it is

58:22

you know we've got this lock step type

58:23

arrangement where these things seemingly

58:25

do happen so

58:26

how do you overcome that piece around it

58:28

will never happen to us is that is there

58:30

anything

58:31

you you've learned that that can kind of

58:33

overcut to bring a sense of immediacy

58:35

because

58:36

unless it unless it feels immediate like

58:38

an immediate threat you know i share

58:40

that i share the fear with you i i fear

58:42

the totalitarian regime i fear the

58:44

erosion of liberties and rights they're

58:46

a real anxiety for me they really are

58:49

but i get a sense of immediacy i see it

58:51

happening i have the sense of urgency to

58:52

act but a lot of people it feels like a

58:54

distant horizon you know what can we do

58:56

to bring that sense of urgency to people

58:58

that's a that's yes yes yes yeah

59:02

well um

59:05

yes

59:06

you know

59:07

i often ask people

59:10

what

59:11

in this kind of logic

59:14

that now sees a society would prevent

59:17

you

59:19

from

59:21

building new concentration camps what in

59:23

this kind of logic if you feel it's

59:25

justified to isolate people in their

59:27

houses to

59:29

force pregnant women to wear mouth masks

59:33

to

59:34

if you uh

59:37

make older people die alone and then

59:40

isolation and isolation

59:42

if you

59:43

and so on and so on why would we not

59:45

take the next step to building a new

59:47

camps in which we could isolate the

59:49

people who tested positively on the

59:51

corona virus and why

59:54

would we not take the next steps that's

59:55

what hana iron also says that typical of

59:57

totalitarianism

59:59

a population is seized by a very simple

60:02

and absurd logic that

60:04

transcresses that makes them transgress

60:06

all ethical limits as if there is no

60:09

other option

60:10

if a is true then b c d and all the rest

60:14

follow from it unavoidably and she said

60:18

until the end of the deadly totalitarian

60:20

alphabet and so and indeed that's that's

60:22

something very typical

60:24

if the the contaminations increase we

60:28

have to go into lockdown again

60:30

and so on it's like a series of of of of

60:33

of consequences

60:35

uh that that seemed strictly necessary

60:38

and indeed that's what i often try to

60:39

explain like i don't believe that

60:42

that that

60:44

we could not end up

60:46

with the same kind of measures that

60:48

hitler

60:49

considered necessary

60:51

to create his pure race

60:56

yeah

60:57

but but how to access yeah i you know

61:00

uh it will be

61:01

to be honest

61:02

uh i think it will be quite difficult to

61:04

avoid uh ending up in a kind of new

61:08

totalitarianism but it will be a

61:10

neutrality

61:12

it will be on the one hand the same as

61:15

the old totalitarianism of the of the

61:17

first half of the 20th century but it

61:19

will always be radically different

61:21

because it will be a worldwide

61:23

totalitarian system uh it will not have

61:26

external enemies it will only have

61:29

internal enemies and it will treat these

61:31

internal enemies in a different way as

61:33

the external enemies were treated that's

61:36

something that is really typical for the

61:37

logic of totalitarian system

61:39

totalitarian systems need an enemy

61:42

at an enemy they collapse so i think

61:44

that

61:45

there is a good chance that

61:47

the new totalitarian system will

61:49

tolerate the existence of the enemies

61:51

but it will

61:53

marginalize them uh push them outside of

61:56

uh mainstream society

61:59

that's one of the things that i think

62:01

will be uh hard to avoid

62:03

um

62:04

we're already seeing that you know

62:06

unless particularly you know we haven't

62:07

talked we're not here to talk about your

62:08

views on the vaccine but nonetheless

62:10

we're seeing it with those who are not

62:12

taking the vaccine you know that you

62:14

know the steps of classification

62:16

symbolization dehumanization of course

62:18

you know or the discrimination all of

62:20

these things are happening

62:22

you know it's it's the great i mean them

62:23

and us situations whereby

62:26

you're all the great unwashed you're the

62:28

ones creating the infections you know

62:30

it's it's it's completely false but it's

62:32

it's creating that internal enemy uh

62:35

and and growing that but that's that's

62:37

the piece that shocks me and concerns me

62:39

the most is that that mentality and and

62:41

the things i see people coming out with

62:42

on social media again saying rational

62:45

people normally that the kind of things

62:48

that they're posting the kind of things

62:49

if social media existed in the 30s i can

62:51

see that's what they would be saying you

62:53

know it's just unbelievable to see but

62:55

that's that's my worry is that we're on

62:57

that path of course of course we are yes

62:59

absolutely

63:01

yes and then totalitarianism doesn't

63:02

care whether their claims are true or

63:04

not the only thing the the the the the

63:07

narrative has to do is it has to connect

63:10

the people it has to uh uh make the

63:12

collective stronger it has to uh

63:16

reorganize uh the to bind the anxiety uh

63:19

and so on that's the only thing that

63:21

matters all the rest uh the more absurd

63:24

the narrative is uh uh the better it

63:26

functions as a ritual that's the the

63:28

drama of of of of totalitarianism

63:31

like our our prime minister uh two days

63:35

ago uh said in the news that uh actually

63:38

this pandemic was a pandemic of the

63:40

non-vaccinated uh and and and

63:43

that they had to stop to put the

63:45

vaccinated at risk so that's so

63:47

contradictory because if only the

63:50

non-vaccinated

63:52

or or are vulnerable for contamination

63:54

with the coronavirus then the then the

63:57

the the the vaccinated or not at the

63:59

risk at all because they cannot be

64:00

contaminated anymore so it's it's but

64:02

but

64:03

the

64:04

so such claims are truly absurd but in

64:07

one way or another

64:08

people

64:09

continue to buy into them and to to to

64:12

to to go along with the narrative that's

64:13

uh showing that uh

64:16

uh

64:17

whether the narrative is correct or

64:18

wrong uh doesn't play any role at all

64:21

really um

64:22

no i appreciate we're over time do you

64:24

have time to answer one more question

64:26

yes yeah so uh

64:28

you know the role of the totalitarianism

64:30

to me that's the thing i fear the most

64:32

now in terms of a counter narrative in

64:35

terms of creating

64:36

an opposition to this there is a lack of

64:38

opposition

64:39

do you think if a a compelling vision

64:41

you know a more compelling vision for

64:43

the future a better alternative can be

64:46

projected uh would that would that in

64:48

some way become more attractive to

64:50

people or are they just too you know

64:52

particularly that middle 40 percent you

64:54

know i appreciate the 30 percent maybe

64:56

too far down the track the ones that are

64:58

most indoctrinated but if there's a more

65:00

compelling vision for the future a more

65:01

compelling vision for society a more

65:03

compelling set of solutions to deal with

65:05

the problems we're facing is that is

65:07

that

65:09

is that going to be enough of a

65:10

motivator i know i know more people move

65:12

away from pain and they do move towards

65:14

pleasure typically but if we if we

65:16

create that compelling vision and create

65:18

an alternative is that something you

65:19

think could play a role in in

65:20

transforming the situation we're in yes

65:23

no

65:24

yes it can play a role we have to make

65:26

our our own narrative as strong as

65:28

possible as convincing as possible but

65:30

what we should realize

65:32

in the first place is

65:34

that totalitarianism and

65:36

mass formation always ends up destroying

65:39

itself so the self-destructive

65:43

character of mass formation and

65:44

authoritarianism is something that has

65:46

been observed and described by all

65:48

scholars that study the phenomenon so

65:53

on the one hand

65:54

um uh

65:56

so

65:56

if we think about the best strategy to

65:58

deal with the situation then we should

66:00

be aware that

66:01

we that we are dealing with an extremely

66:03

strong enemy but an enemy who will

66:06

always destroy

66:08

himself so the only thing you have to do

66:10

is we have to make sure

66:12

that

66:13

our story continues

66:15

to be present in public space and that

66:18

we survive for a few years

66:21

that are but that's our realistic goals

66:23

and we never should try to beat the

66:26

enemy because the enemy can only be

66:27

beaten by himself that's but something

66:28

that really it's you can't explain it

66:30

psychologically in a very nice and

66:33

convincing way

66:35

why

66:36

the masses and totalitarianism are

66:38

always so destructive and as soon as you

66:40

realize that you realize that the only

66:42

thing you have to do is to continue to

66:45

speak

66:46

and

66:47

to make sure that in one way or another

66:50

you can survive outside of the system

66:52

these two things and then

66:55

you can quietly wait until total

66:57

italianism destroys itself but

67:00

of course i don't say that it will be

67:02

easy but but that is the strategy to

67:05

deal with it and i'm sure that it will

67:06

work you will see

67:08

that the small group

67:10

this small group

67:12

will survive and that

67:14

in one way or another

67:15

[Music]

67:17

after the collapse it will play an

67:19

important role i think

67:21

in the rebuilding of a society according

67:23

to new and more human

67:25

more ethical

67:27

principles um

67:29

i agree i you know i think in the shell

67:31

of the old will emerge something more

67:33

beautiful and vibrant uh and that's

67:35

where uh i think that that excitement

67:37

for me comes um

67:40

lastly so in terms of your studies with

67:42

totalitarianism

67:44

where are we on that line you know how

67:46

far away are we from the serpent

67:47

destroying itself here you know

67:50

you know is there a typical pattern

67:53

that's a good question

67:54

um well

67:59

i think we have to some steps to go

68:02

actually yes

68:04

i think so

68:06

of course i think this totalitarian

68:08

system

68:10

probably will destroy itself

68:13

much quicker than the totalitarian

68:15

systems of the 20th century because none

68:17

of the of this totalitarian system has

68:21

intruded

68:22

the bodies of its population in such a

68:24

systematic

68:26

and straightforward way so whether the

68:28

vaccination

68:30

campaigns and so on

68:32

and my

68:35

purely reasoning from a psychological

68:38

point of view

68:39

if you know that all the totalitarian

68:42

projects ended up as a disaster that's

68:44

something really striking you can read

68:46

for example

68:47

the book of hana iron on the origins of

68:50

totalitarianism and then the book of sol

68:52

cinechin

68:53

the gulag archipelago i don't know if

68:55

you

68:56

know the book but

68:58

they all they describe

68:59

the processes

69:01

in the soviet union in a very detailed

69:03

way and they both conclude exactly the

69:06

same every project

69:09

that was undertaken by the totalitarian

69:11

leaders ended up as a disaster and they

69:13

continued until the population was

69:15

completely exhausted exterminated

69:17

destroyed and so on

69:20

and that's why you need a large

69:21

population

69:23

for a true full-fledged totalitarian

69:25

system to emerge you need a very large

69:27

population that's the only reason why

69:29

the so that's the main the most

69:31

important reason why in the soviet union

69:34

totalitarianism was pushed to the most

69:36

extreme limit

69:38

because the population in germany was

69:40

not large enough and there were

69:41

totalitarian trends in several other

69:43

countries as well but if the population

69:45

is too small